with guest TJ Meagher

TJ Meagher helps busy entrepreneurs beat procrastination & reclaim power over their time, focus & self-worth.

www.Tjmeagher.com
Instagram.com/_tjmeagher 
Linkedin.com/in/tj-meagher

Joe Bukartek empowers people to live intentionally. As host of the podcast, Intentionally Ever After [www.IntentionallyEverAfter.com], Joe is an ultramarathon runner and pickleball enthusiast, living at the beach with his family as part of his own curated intentional lifestyle.

As a board certified Intentional Lifestyle Coach, Joe helps individuals to have lives and careers that are wildly more fulfilling. Ready to curate a life of intention? Connect with Joe on his website [www.joebukartek.com] or LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/joebukartek/.]

Joe also helps emerging adults build lifelong success beyond the nest in his specialized program, Intention to Launch. This results-driven partnership guides participants as they prepare to leave home and discover their ideal lives. Ready to launch? Check out [www.IntentionToLaunch.com]

If you would like to have your own intentional conversation with Joe, either on or off the air, visit https://www.joebukartek.com/contact

Check out more episodes at intentionallyeverafter.com

Transcript

0:06

For me, that intentionally means to not just respond to what happens, but to be able to make that response in accordance with the vision that you want to live. This is intentionally ever after. Join Intentional Lifestyle Coach Joe Brokercheck. For a series of personal conversations and coaching sessions with various people about how living with intention shows up for them. Greetings, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Intentionally Ever After. Today, I am thrilled to be speaking with the introspective PJ Moeller. PJ, welcome. Thanks. I'm excited to be on here and talk to you about some interesting stuff. Yes, it will be interesting. That is a guarantee. T.J. Will you kindly introduce yourself to folks? Yeah. So I'm T.J. Smart. I've been a coach for almost four years now, and I guess I have a bit of an existential kind of streak in me where I really, really pay attention a lot to philosophical concepts of existentialism and how it affects people's lives in terms of anxiety, in terms of how they relate to other people and relate to themselves and how it relates to self esteem. So my coaching tends to be a little bit more deep than just goal setting and that kind of stuff. That's the kind of stuff that I really, really like to pay attention to. But how it manifests a lot is perfectionism, procrastination, self-criticism. This kind of stuff is where my clients usually meet me at. Besides that, I love movement. I dance, I do yoga. I've got a gym. I love nature. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for sharing those little tidbits as well. For those of you who already or don't yet follow T.J. on social media, he includes some pretty groovy aspects of his life in there. So you get a pretty good picture about what he's about. And it's pretty interesting, entertaining and often thought provoking. Very often. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Indeed. Let that see, folks. Multi-Tiered. You can check the show notes for all of today's socials. T.J., I'd like to do a rapid fire intro to our conversation wherein we'll go very briefly. Will different to it will give us a tasty soundbite, perhaps for each of these questions, knowing that we'll go back in more thoroughly to dig in. Be on the surface, are you you ready for that? Raise over me? Good, good, good. Here we go, T.J., What does it mean to live intentionally? For me, living intentionally means to not just respond to what happens, but to be able to make that response in accordance with a vision that you want to live. What is one change in habit that has had an exponential payoff? I probably have to say self-analysis, not through coaching, through therapy, through journaling. Just because we so often deny things about ourselves that this can really, really hinder a lot of our intentions from coming to fruition because we're had this inner conflict with ourselves that we don't often realize. So it's a self-analysis. What have you said no to that has made a significant impact in your life? False security, Just a life that is quote unquote practical and safe. And really, really living and betting on myself and betting on my personality and betting on my passion. What area in your life feels just about perfect? None. We get in there and we're going to. Good. Who is someone you admire and what you admire about them? Recently there was a photo that I. An old photo of my brother. And it's him making a silly face. And I rode in the back of it. I'm going to give it to him. I wrote on the back something about the meditation called Metta and practicing, you know, kind of loving kindness. And if one of the things that I've been able to do is really connect with my brother and the purity in his heart, he's a very pure hearted person. And to be able to respond to the snakes and people or that shit in life, that can be really traumatizing. To be able to respond to that with an open heart is really heroic. And so I really look at him as a kind of heroic person because he's been through some things, but he still responds as open as what you imagine some people admire about you. Probably my like my my zest, like my my passion. I'm a very like, I'm a very energetic and passionate person. And I think people probably admire, I guess, my openness. Like I'm I'm always willing to be like, hmm, I'm curious and non-judgmental. I'm like, really open to someone else's perspective. And I think that genuine care and openness I think people really do resonate with because I do tend to be able to go deep with you pretty often. So I think I was probably that. PJ Mah, thank you for sitting in the hot seat. You may now step down. All right, Excellent. Thank you very much for giving those some very thoughtful, yet succinct responses. I'd like to begin now. Is it okay with you Not to it? Okay. The meaning of living intentionally. You talked about the intersection between your response and a vision. You have the life you want. Tell me more about living intentionally. Yeah. I don't want to say that it's this kind of being closed off to what happens, because then you're kind of mistaking, I think when you push a virtue to an extreme, it can become its opposite. You can become a face when you push it too far. When you live in in terms of universality, if we're only responding with everything in life has to fit into my vision, then you're pretty stubborn, you know, If you're not willing to adapt the change to what? To how, you know, life responds to your response, you know, then you're just you're having a conversation with yourself. And I think that's not how reality works. You know, reality and what human life is is that it's a conversation or responding to other people and to life back and forth. Try something you put in your effort, your willpower. That's your your sentence, your side and then life responds with the chaos, the unimaginable. Something happens and then there's a constant conversation. I think that there's a balance there that needs to be there, that you can't just have a just intentional life that's only focused on your principles and values and goals, and everything has to fit into that. That's a little bit too strict. At the same time, you don't want to be so psychologically open that you lack intentionality, that you lack an intention or a vision. I think there's a balance there between being able to steer the rudder in different directions and, you know, let it kind of shift around a little bit, but still keep your eye on the intention and allow even the intention to adapt and change as you mature and grow a little bit. So what I'm hearing is living intentionally in order to be most reasonable, most sustainable, has to have a lack of rigidity, has to have a little readability so that you can attend to the universe in its designs. It's not just about your vision for yourself, because that might be a little too limited. Is that what you're getting at? Yeah, and it's nothing that it's just limited. I mean, you said it really dense, which is great, right? It's an interest and it's limited, just like it's not the whole picture. Like, you can't like, it's not reality intellect, just not how life is. Yes. So what does it look like for you, T.J., to live in tension when you are living intentionally? What what are some of the ingredients there? A schedule and rituals that align with who I want to be in the cold shower. Journaling. Reading my coaching books in psychology books. Not hanging out with people that don't thrill me. I have actually a list of rules for myself that I share in India. I would love to hear them. Well, first of all, how many are there? Are we going beyond 20? No, there's ten. I would love to hear them Right now, I'm willing to share. I'd be delighted. One is don't hang out with anybody that doesn't energize, inspire or challenge you to. Knowing is not enough. You must apply. Three. Identify your fears and desires and know that they are energy. So it's about transmutation. Number four have a specific plan. Number five, don't wait until you feel like it. You never will. So practice discipline. Number six. Give your heart and everything you do. Otherwise, don't do it. Number seven, if you know a thing is wrong, don't do it. And that. That seems simple, but it's not right. It's about not justifying or rationalizing immoral behavior, which can get tricky sometimes. Number eight, be honest. Number nine get uncomfortable. And number ten continually practice self-reflection. These are my beautiful. Thank you for sharing those. May I ask a few questions around them? Mm hmm. Love it, Love it. Love it. Okay, So how do you reconcile if something doesn't feel right? Right. Don't do it. And the one where you said you're never going to totally feel ready. It feels like there's there's some gray area where it might feel unready. You might feel unprepared. Do you get where I'm going with this? There feels like there's going to be an area that's like, this feels wrong or because I'm not ready. Have you negotiate that feeling? And what do you do with that? Well, I just I this is theoretical, but sometimes it gets very confusing and sometimes we hide from it. We hide from ourselves. But I really try to define what's happening inside me. Is it an intuition that it's actually not the right path for me? Or am I just afraid of failure, rejection, whatever. So I'm kind of searching for my inner monologue. I'm kind of searching for that and. Okay, What sensations are behind that? Is it a nervous, quick kind of controlling attitude and feeling because, oh, that's probably a fear of rejection, failure or whatever? Or is it a kind of more intuitive like this? Maybe, maybe this isn't the right path for me, and it's more of a of a quiet, intuitive feeling. And thus comes your final rule of self analysis of self-reflection right now, which is great. That helps you discern, okay, can you identify an example, a recent example, where you've run it through this filter? Is it this or is it that? And you've decided to just do it? Or maybe it was uncertain at first. Can you think of an example recently where you took action on something? Yeah. Yeah. So I actually am going next Sunday in about six days, am going to Denmark. I'm going to be visiting a few clients and a few friends Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, France, So bunch of good places. And I was thinking to myself, okay, is this the right move right now? Should I be, you know, double down on my business? And I just bought a new apartment a few months back. Should I be What should I be doing? Right. And going through that, I kind of like imagined what it would be like to be there. And I was like, it would be really cool. But then I was I'll say to myself, and I don't know if I have money right now. I don't know if I if I had a good use of my money. And then I was kind of realizing like, well, I mean, I could be dead in like six months. So like, if I really think about, you know, the end of my life, maybe when I'm 80, I'm really going to be looking back and saying, Oh, man, I wish I didn't spend that thousand dollars. And I'm like, No, no, I'm going to meet people that I have never met before, but I really connected with deeply to meet them, to go to a new place or a new country in the face of the and the whole thing in which your life measures up against right now, which is the inevitable end. And that perspective, typically things become clear. So I use death really often as a tool for clarifying what I should be doing. An excellent. I feel like that ties into what you're sharing, what you say no to is that false security and leaning away from a life that it's maybe practical, right? Yes, That is it's a powerful image and it's a powerful it's powerful filter, frankly. So I think I think it's fantastic because for you, it allows you to live the life that you would say that you wanted in the end, seemingly. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, death anxiety is something that every human being subconsciously represses actively. Right. But when you harness that, it is a it's like hacking your biology because then other fears are not as powerful as that fear. And it's like, oh shit, wait. So this fear can be used to overpower that fear and make me go bungee jumping or make me go, you know, go and approach this girl or make me go into that career that I want to go into because I can use that fear of death as a motivator. Wow. Okay. All right. That's pretty cool. So then we change our relationship to fear. I like it. I like it. Give me lots of questions that's there written down because we're going to have to make this a two parter, perhaps. Thank you again for sharing those rules, because that's a lot of those. And why I want to ask you many, many more questions in addition to the original ones that I asked you. Relatedly, folks listening now don't know that we had this conversation before we hit record. But if only you're thinking something on your wall behind you, you know, in an artistic fashion, I think a ten rules for my life probably makes sense. The background. Oh, that's really hard, right? That's really good. Like that, you know? You know? Yeah. Yeah. So we're talking about. That's okay. The analysis is one change in habit. It's funny. Rules, even self-analysis. Self-reflection. As long as I have known you since the very beginning of that time, you have struck me as someone who is open and thinking about very intentional, dare I say, about the words you choose, about the thought to express, and seemingly about your actions as well. When did you not do this? Well, kind of up until I was about 17. 18. Okay. I didn't do this when I was 18. Two traumatic things happened to me. One is that I had a really, really deep existential crisis where, like, I was looking up at the stars and my friend was explaining to me that these smaller stars are actually just farther away. And it stopped making me look at the night sky as a kind of landscape. And it started making me look at the night sky as a kind of like falling into an abyss, like its infinite. And it gave me a 3D perspective. Like I was seeing depth in the sky and not just, you know, big and small stars, right? And that sense of scale really disrupted who I was at the core of what a reality was. I was like, Oh my God, I am this microscopic being. And that really dramatically shifted everything in my life. It was an axiomatic shift of I am going this way in my life and now I'm going that way. And it totally disrupted all of my narratives about religion, about philosophy, about, you know, what was a meaningful life. And I went into this kind of desert of nihilism and going through that, that really started to make me become self analytical, almost out of necessity, because I started to get anxiety, I started to see colors differently. I was more poetic, I was more interested in life. It's like my my head cracked open to life. And it was just really, really dramatic thing for me. And nothing changed externally and internally, I was really dramatically changed. And the second thing that changed in my life at that time was a betrayal in the family, which really, really opened me up to what is my perception about? Is my perception real? Can I trust my presumption? And that skepticism that that bred from that really became a foundation of my personality in terms of being skeptical and being a thinker. And thank you for sharing that. Who is this stargazing friend of yours that shook you to your core, you know, best friend. His name is Matteo. And just a guy who moved over here from Colombia when he was 13, 14, a very strange guy. He's, you know, one time he stayed up for five days just to be able to see how it feels. And he said it was the strongest hallucinogen he's ever encountered. You know, very strange person that you wouldn't think that he's he's full of wisdom. He's not overbearing about it. But if you get into conversation with him, he's very, very sharp guy. And yeah, it's like a hidden gem, you know? But when we talk, he's just able to pierce through to the core of what things are. And I really appreciate that. I've met him. He's changed a lot about my perspective. Your to use your answer for who you admire so you cannot admire him, doesn't count. Okay. You already said your brother. Sorry. That is cool. He does sound like a very groovy dude. Can I ask you back to one of your rules? Because this is something that had triggered previously and I ask you it back in about this. Thank you for sharing this again. That's great. Mm hmm. Your top rule, I believe, was don't hang out with people who suck. I'm paraphrasing. Right. What's the inverse of that? Who do you surround yourself with? Who do you actively seek out in order to live the way you want to live? People that are taking action, You know, like at this point in my life, it's really about actually about action. So people that are taking action, that is authentic and courageous and they're standing for something. They're living for something they're passionate about, something they're not letting life go by and just be like, Oh, I'm working at this job and I'm doing this. And if you're not passionate and enthusiastic about the things that you're doing, don't blame life. Blame yourself. You're not courageous enough to call forth life's riches. Now, I'm kind of paraphrasing from Rainer Maria Rilke, this German poet. Yeah, I just. I really do like thing about people that are passionate and that are creative, that are, you know, doing things that are authentic and real to them. But that's the kind of people I like to hang out with as groovy. So, you know, I apologize for my second use of that word in less than 5 minutes. It sounds like these are the folks that you are attracted to. Are these the folks, dare I say, that you are going to see and visit in Europe? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Those people fit in that category for sure. Mm hmm. How do you look for things to be scheduled? I think that was another thing that you want to have a planned routines ritual. It's going to sound like exactly the same question. Maybe, But how do you choose to engage? Like, how do you seek these people out when you are looking to re-energize, when you're looking to move forward socially? What is your almost logistical process? You get up to go to LinkedIn and search for specific terms. How do you seek these individuals out? It's a kind of guttural response. Like when I when I am because first of all, I have a good sense of community and have a good sense of a friends. I have a decent amount of friends at community. So if I'm not just going to my community and my friends, if it's not that I'm seeking new people, that's the question, then it's a matter of just like I'm seeing people I meet on Instagram or LinkedIn and I'm like, if something really, really resonates with me in terms of like, that's, that's real. Like this person is actually putting their heart into it, I could see that I'll just shoot them a message like, Hey, I really love your stuff. I want to say I appreciate this, this and this about you. That's it. And then if they respond to me, just get into a conversation. But other times I'll just meet people at a party or, you know, social setting or whatever. And I'm typically the kind of person that will engage people in deeper conversation. And if I just resonate with someone I like, I'm ginning up, just send the invitation. You know, just that's kind of what I do, right? That's the part that you're in control of, right? Of living intentionally putting yourself out there. You can't guarantee what they're going to respond with. If they don't respond, if they turn their back and walk away or what have you. Right. I had to learn how to maneuver that because when I was when I was 18 and I went through this big, you know, emotional shift in me, I guess I didn't really realize that not everyone wanted to talk about death and that you quickly realized. Yeah, I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For a little while, I was like, Why are we wasting time talking about this stuff? Like, you know, But I did, I did adjust and realize, like, Right, okay, right. People are don't you realize those small stars are farther away and you want to talk about that? Yes. Yes. No, I appreciate the reason I'm asking that is because I know for a number of people, whether they're listening to this or not, have their routines and maybe going years and decades. Right. They have their communities. They have their stuff in place, basically. And if they're hearing things like and maybe they've heard previously that it's about who you hang out with or the average of the five people you hang out with the most or whatever the metaphor is, they're like, that's all well and good, but I live here and this is my situation and this is my day to day, and I'm not going to change this. I'm not going to what might one do? And so you answering that, I think gave some insight into what one might do if you don't already run into these types of people. Right. And ideally, everyone has at least one person or a couple of people in their lives that maybe like them up or get them excited or takes them to a better place to where they want to be living. Right. And maybe spending more time with those and less time with like your number one rule says, less time to the people that drain you or keep you from being who you want to be. So I think that's I think that's great. Yeah, I think the short answer to that question is like practice resourcefulness, not like mud. No, like, that's the short answer. Yeah. Yeah. Victimhood in terms of, well, these are my circumstances. So it is what it is. Yeah. Tell me about why your life is so imperfect. Because I'm honest with myself. Is it the term perfect? Right. When I said what area your life feels just about perfect. And I stopped you after you said none. I do put the word perfect in quotes. Right. Let me. Let me refine it here, because I have a general idea of where you're going with imperfect. Yeah. Yeah. What area of your life do you feel most excited about? Because it is going the way you want it to be going. Mm hmm. Okay, got it. No, I mean, I really. I really don't know. I mean, none of the pieces in my life go exactly the way I want it to. Okay. Yeah. Really? None. I'm just. I'm just constantly having this conversation where it's like I want certain things, and I get a little version of that and responding to that to, like, if you had nothing really going exactly the way I want it to. All right, I'm going to massage it further. I'm not going to give up on this one. All right. Which area of your life are you excited about? Love. I love that you're sticking with it. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. An area that I'm excited about, for sure, I would say is just my career. Okay. I'm very interested in I love what I do and I love the conversations that they have and I love the clients that I have. And I'm considering getting a Ph.D. in coaching because now there's another reason coaching. And I'm also considering maybe a PhD, maybe in coaching, in psychology, or maybe in philosophy and psychology. But I just I love learning. I love education, I love what I do. And the idea of getting to closer towards mastery and seeing seeing people that are really, really good at what they do, that excites me. People that, you know, people that are really able to cut through to the heart of things and be able to help people really quickly. That idea of really excites me because it is what I really want to do with my life. And if I'm here to serve that, that's really it. This is what I'm here for. Like, I want to be able to do this. So I'm really excited to, to become a better coach and to grow my business and to be able to just like really help people really deeply. I'm really excited for that. It's just about perfect. Living on I believe you had shared in another context another conversation with other stakeholders. You would share this coaching, I believe, and it sounded like something that right up your alley and kind of like made a lot of sense. So I'm intrigued and delighted to be hearing more about this journey moving forward. Someone you admire. The first person you mention is your brother, right? In his openness, he was pure hearted. Tell me more about, first of all, this image, this photo that you want to share with him, and then talk to me about how you view your brother as open hearted. Yeah, well, the photo of him is just like it's him in a dugout for baseball, and he's making this really silly face as he walks by. Go ahead for the viewers on YouTube. It's like this. Like this. The making that kind of a face. And it's hilarious because he always, even to this day, still does that face. Yeah, it's absolutely just it's so it's so funny. Just he's just comical, like wiry Jim Carrey kind of a character, you know, very animated. The reason why I say that I see him as pure hearted is because it's been so easy to be his brother. He's an older brother. I have two older brothers. It's been so easy to be his younger brother. Like he he's very open and receptive, like very easy to get along with. It wasn't like argue or fight about a lot of things. And it's not naivete. Like it's not like he, like trust people because he doesn't know that people can hurt him. It's more like he's like, Why is a serpent's soft as does this, the Bible that says that? Why is the serpent softer? That's like you're you're wise in the sense that the serpent knows that other people have snakes within them and knows that they can bite but soft to the dark in the sense that you are still able to trust people, you're still able to for the possibility of people living up to their better angels, of their nature. You're able to trust out of courage, not out of naivety. Right. And I think he does that like, you know, he's been he's been fucked over a couple times, you know, in life. But he's responded, you know, he hasn't curled up in resentment and defensiveness, Like, he's just not that kind of guy. He's open to listening to you, you know, even if you pocket his ego, he's like, open, listen to you. And it is really cool to see someone who continually opens his heart in response to life. Very cool. Well, I encourage you to share this conversation with him. You can you can jump to this point in the conversation if he does want to listen to saying nice things about Mateo. But I think he'd be delighted to hear these things that he had this impact. And if you haven't already, I encourage you to share this directly with him, whether it, you know, sharing this recording, basically telling him these things. I have a feeling, though, you're the type of guy that likely does share these things. I do. I do. Yeah. Yeah, That makes it when I asked you at the top of the conversation, what do you think people might admire about you? You started off with a very powerful word. This. It is your zest. And then as you were describing and going a little deeper, you got to almost a similar answer to what you admired about your brother, which was the openness to me about that, which I don't I don't know, is not entirely surprising because of it is something you admire, typically something you aspire to be. Yes, but it sounds like you might have already attained this enlightenment. Talk to me about why this is your answer. What people might admire about you, your openness or your sense. I think that's my answer, because that's what people call out. People often call it out. Sometimes I'll if I feel comfortable with someone and if I know that they're patient and that we have time, I will go off on, you know, five minute philosophical rants and, you know, and just like go deep into it, into a concept and explain why that concept is interesting and why it's pertinent. And I'll know when someone's, like, locked in with me. Like, I'll know it. And people often when when I know it, when I feel it, when you feel it, then typically at the end you're like, Wow. Yeah. Like, that's interesting. I've never heard someone describe like that. I never looked at consciousness from a biological perspective before or whatever it might be. You know, like whenever we're talking about people do respond with that, like, Wow, you should be a life coach. Like, wow, you should be like a professor or something, you know? And, you know, people will respond to that part of me strongly. Yeah. You know, you've got to pay attention to it, too. What character traits people respond to in you, because we have to reality check with you with what people respond to us. Right? It doesn't mean that that determines us, but it does, you know, it lets us know what is being highlighted in their perspective. Right? So it just that was always highlighted, just my my passion for these deeper topics and genuine this of just being be open to other people's perspective like it's always that's always come up and part of the conversation. So yeah so because you've presented it as you did, I have to ask, when are people not locked in? What do you do that when you notice a couple, couple of moments, a couple of comments and they're like, I lost them. Give us an example of when that might have happened that maybe it never happened. And no, I mean, I well, that's the second question. The first question is when does it happen? I think it happens when it's unsolicited advice. That's when it definitely happens. Or like me, when I'm just responding from level one, like in in collective coaching, you know, in the book, they talk about level one, two and three listening. And when I'm responding like the garbage can, like recycling things and just kind of like taking it in, Oh, this, this relates to me when I'm just relating it to me, then, you know, people tend to not listen. I'm just like responding. Oh, yeah, that relates to me because of this. And it's like, okay, I'm not really catching them. I'm not really picking up on their they're feeling tone, not really reflecting something deep in them, you know, because only when people really feel that you're knowing deeper inside of who they actually are, that's when they'll be receptive to you, you know? But if you just skip over that, people subconsciously know it, even if they don't consciously or unconsciously know it. And then a defense comes up and so this happened to you when people are listening at that, or is it about you listening that I can an interaction where you are starting to get into it, not because maybe you're a level one, but because they were not prepared to do some self-reflection, right? They were not ready to you know, they might have let something slip and not realize that, oh, this guy's genuinely curious and listening to me. That might have been a throwaway comment. I was ready to talk about the weather. And then you're ready to talk about the death of the star, right? So, so often. Yeah, I felt that right. So how do you how do you move forward from that moment? Because I'm sure you catch it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. And especially clarify the question like is the question of like, how do I move through the resistance of them not wanting to or like, what is the question here. Well, yeah, let's come up with a specific instance where this might have happened because it happened so frequently. Take us into the example in how it played out. Oh, okay. So you want an example how this worked out? Mm hmm. Oh, man. I don't know if I can think of one right now. Let me take a second. I guess I'll give a little caricature. I can think of a specific moment right now. I'll give a little caricature. Like sometimes I'll be, like, at a party and we'll be kind of like making joking, joking conversations and, like, it'll remind me it'll trigger something a little bit deeper in me. Have like I notice as you're saying, that the fact that they listen to someone else's story and they got that they got that out of that. Interesting that you pulled that out of that. That's an interesting connection you made in your head. So sometimes I'll just like call that and like, oh, like what made you what made you switch over to that topic from this? And then I was just like, pull it out. Like, Huh? I'm just like, it's interesting the way that you responded to that. And then like, that will give him a chance to be like, Why did I do that? Why did I just switch to this? Why did I catch that aspect of the story? Particularly? Why is that aspect of a story meaningful to me? What about that resonate with me? I would invite them and sometimes people will respond to that, but like, I don't know, that's interesting. And then move on and then more sometimes. Yeah. Or sometimes they'll the instead say, Oh, okay, well yeah, I guess. And kind of like talk deeper about it and then we'll just go in, you know. Yeah, but there's an example that's a good example. Thank you for sharing because that's, that's not exactly where I would go, but it's great. It sounds like you're just calling it an observation, right? Yeah, that you've made. Yeah. Sometimes I'll do something that is even a little bit further. Well, sometimes I'll be. I think it feels like we're all looking for words to say. I like if it ever gets quiet, you know, like, like I said, that's called that like, feels like we're all searching for something to say next, right? And then a few times, if I'm really comfortable with someone. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a good icebreaker, actually. That's a really good way of of comment out. It's okay that we're, we're silent here, but I'm going to fill it a little bit with what's going on with a play by play. Yeah. Acknowledge, acknowledge what's happening in a feeling tone. Totally all the way. What would you like to share? Additionally, in the name of intentionality, I would say the current I talked about before with with death, like if anybody listening to this, you know, it feels a little bit stuck or feels just maybe they lack that zest for life. I would say do some meditation on death, do some writing about how time is passing by and do a brief history of yourself. What has happened to you and what you've done in your life, and do kind of a history of how you've gotten to where you are and and what you want that rest of your time to be about. And just really start to integrate death into your life. That's what I would say, because that for me was the the biggest transformation for me is just when I started to really acknowledge the fact that I was going to die because that not just intellectually, but when that like really emotionally hit me, everything changed for me. So I think just doing that practice really helps live intentional. Yeah, I really like that exercise. How might you work with It is very naturally caught up in the limitation of of money. The real real resource scarce gold scarce with the real resource of of money and affordability and. You know that four letter word of retirement you know that people that you got it can't do things because that this can't do things like obligation fiscal responsibilities and obligations. How do you talk to someone and reconcile those two ideas? Because the death one is a very powerful one. It sounds like it's saying this this idea of death in the fleeting moments of life is more important than paying for it. How do you help people reconcile that? Because without saying this doesn't actually matter, right? Because some people just aren't going to swallow that pill. Yeah, for sure. I guess for me, the way that reconcile it is to be able to talk to people about how they think about money and it relate to money. A lot of people, they approach money from a scarcity mindset. And you know, to be able to overvalue money, right, That probably a lot of times comes from a place of fear and scarcity. And, you know, that's why I'll bring it to that place of death. But I'll typically relate to like, how did your parents treat money? What are your thoughts about money? How do you budget to really talk to them about about just like how they feel about money? Do they feel that maybe money can buy them love? I've had clients that have felt that in the past. I have clients that have felt that, Oh, someone else has something special that I don't. That's why they make more money than me, because I'm not special. So we have a bunch of beliefs around money that relate to our self-worth, and so I typically take them through that to be able to have them relate differently to money because it is just like time, because, you know, time is related to death, just like time. It is one of the most precious resources of life. And if we have a relationship with resource as to life that is scarce, then we're going to take actions that are safe and that won't lead to maybe making more money. So I try to help them to relate to money with less fear and to see that it's kind of two sides of the same coin, that it's not like, Oh, you either choose a life of existential freedom or you're just doing everything, or you are a practical life of money. I feel like you just instead change your relationship to both resources of life to be able to get rid of some of the fear around both of these things and start leaning in more to to being a little bit more active and intentional about both of these. And it's not one or the other. It's a false dichotomy. And so I think, you know, you kind of have to be able to adjust. Like in spirituality, it's not bypassing the physical realm, it's that the spiritual is imbued inside of the physical realm and vice versa. It's the same thing. It's like in money there. Is that an inherent limitation? There's a limitation. The ultimate limitation is death, right? But there's an inherent limitation in terms of you getting what you want, right? And so money can be a part of that path, right? Of like, okay, doing things that are meaningful before death, that requires money, right? So it's definitely, you know, so it's a kind of a false dichotomy and I don't really like to pin them against each other. Right. Well, that's what people do automatically. And so it sounds like you help people to shift that and to change your mental model, Right. To pull the Mateo treatment on them, right to the bedrock, so to speak. T.J., this has been delightful. How might people find you if they want to learn more? They want to experience perhaps a conversation with you if they want to help shift their perspectives and in order to get what they want, where would they find you? They can see a little bit more about what I'm about on Instagram. My handle is underscore, T.J. and Paige are, and you can just search me there. I'm typically there if you want to be more direct. You kind of see how I work with people. You can just go to my website. It's T.J. MBA dot com and you can see my testimonials. Those are good stuff. If you want to see Some of the concepts I talk about, Instagram is probably the place. Yeah. Yeah. Or recommend going there at a minimum. And then you probably have a way of finding you from there as well. Imagine just message, just message on Instagram. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time. I genuinely appreciate it. I knew about your life, so I'm not really surprised, I'll be honest, but I am unsurprisingly delighted to. Have this time. Thank you for going deeper and thank you for sharing a little bit of your ten rules. And beyond that, I genuinely appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for being engaged. Thanks for kind of poking a little bit further when there was time to book more, which is just great. You know, you're embodying the Joe that I know. Excellent. Excellent, good. So I'm the same person I always endeavor to be. I will be saying thank you once again. Thank you. This has been intentionally ever after hosted by intention, no lifestyle coach Joe Booker Tech. If you would like to have your own intentional conversation with Joe on or off the air visit intentionally ever after Dot com. Thanks for listening.